tough questions

[Gubni]

My chuch is doing a bible study on tough questions. They are covering some great topics. They say there is no need for blind faith. I live by questioning everything, so I hope this will really strengthen my faith. There are a few topics that are not covered that I'd like to bring up.

How did God come to be? Was he born? Did he evolve?

Are there different levels of hell? Will Saddam suffer in the same way as a 2 year old child that never had the chance to know God? How about a Jewish Rabbi who worshiped God his entire life. The Jews may be confused about Jesus but does someone who has praised God longer than I have been alive deserve the same punishment as Hitler?

Do you want to praise God everyday of your afterlife for eternity? Doing the same thing over and over beside countless others doesn't seem like heaven to me. What do you think heaven is like? What will you do for eternity?

[TiredIronGRB]

All of these are anwsered in the Bible (dig in and get them) other than the last the one "What will you do for eternity?"

I personally want to praise Jesus for eternity for saving me and blessing me way beyond anything I could imagine.

I have a book you can read called...in six days...and another called..The Case for Christ...just pm me and ill meet you some where...they are both really good books and they both helped me out in understanding God :lol:

[Thumpszilla]

Shawn I have found the search function on www.biblegateway.com to be very helpful and accurate. I do not know the answers to all of your questions myself. As to the 2 yr old child though it is not of the age of accountability and will not go to hell but to heaven.

[Gubni]

All of these are anwsered in the Bible (dig in and get them) other than the last the one "What will you do for eternity?"

I personally want to praise Jesus for eternity for saving me and blessing me way beyond anything I could imagine.

It's a long book that takes a lot of thought and time to understand. Did you have a verse in mind?

I have a book you can read called...in six days...and another called..The Case for Christ...just pm me and ill meet you some where...they are both really good books and they both helped me out in understanding God :lol:

I may get up with you next week.

Shawn I have found the search function on www.biblegateway.com to be very helpful and accurate. I do not know the answers to all of your questions myself. As to the 2 yr old child though it is not of the age of accountability and will not go to hell but to heaven.

Thanks for the answer. Now that you mention that I do remember it.

[TiredIronGRB]

As to the 2 yr old child though it is not of the age of accountability and will not go to hell but to heaven.

Thanks for the answer. Now that you mention that I do remember it.

This is exactly what I've been talking about when I say search the word and don't take peoples opinion. There is nothing in the bibile about an age of accountability.

Shawn you remember this because it's tradition, I've heard it a thousand times but it's not scriptural. People come up with opinions and then they teach it and others that don't study the word believe it the next thing you know people believe it's in the bible. That is how we get things like "Cleanlyness is next to Godlyness" and "God helps those who help themselves"

[gasmandave]

Try this website for tough questions. www.gotquestions.org scroll to the bottom of the page and see all the topics cover. click on one and see questions that have been asked, click and get your answer. Someone has already done the research for you and has the answers. Hope this helps. :grin:

[Monstero]

Its always good to turn to other study material for information but you mentioned the Bible being a big book and tough to find stuff.....the best thing you can do IMO is go out and get a good Concordance and use that to find answers in the Bible.

[HotRodYJ]

Nothing wrong with using other resources and opinions to help point you in the right direction. As said before always look in the Bible yourself and see how YOU read it once you've figured out where to look.

I stumbled accross another site this mornig that could help answer some questions or provide direction on where to look in the Bible. They are also opening a Creation Museum in Cinncinnati this summer that sets out to defend Christian creation as read in the Bible vrs Evolution as taught in the schools and spouted by Scientist's. Should be very interesting and worth the trip to see.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp

[sams_pf]

I have a book "Where to find it in the Bible" that's been really handy, and it has reference for different bilbes too. Also have program I downloaded, e-Sword, has a search for topics, dictionaries and concordance. Maybe that'll help.

[Gordon]

I use a book called "What Does The Bible Say About...." , by Brian Ridolphi.

[crackerjack]

First I'm NO expert but, if you think about the question of. When does a child reach the "age of accountability". You should come at it from free will. God gave us free will to decide to be followers. We can't decide if we don't understand. Or we would simply be baptized at birth ? So to say because it's not in the bible doesn't disprove something. Example Lib's say there's nothing in the Bible about abortion. But we surely agree that it is murder.?

My understanding is that the Catholic's believe that there is a nether world where unsaved children go....

I believe that God loves children like no one can imagine. And he uses their shortened lives to teach. I believe he welcomes them with open arms and they play in Field's of soft grass....

[TiredIronGRB]

I'll stick with scripture, that's all I've found you can stand on.

[Bluegill]

I'll stick with scripture, that's all I've found you can stand on.
Actually it IS in Levitical (Jewish) law - been several years since I researched it, so I can't quote the scriptures from memory, but I will look it up and post ;-) By the way - it's in the Torah, not New Testament :wink:

If I remember correctly, puberty is the defining age scripturally. Pretty sure there are 3 passages that affirm it too.

I emphatically agree about double checking what you're taught in church, because otherwise all you have are traditions of men - and most of those "traditions" have only caused division in the Body of Christ. If your spiritual leader (pastor, etc) doesn't welcome you to challenge his or her teachings with God's Word, then you are in danger of being deceived - period. It is an individual's responsibility to seek the truth from its SOURCE, not blindly trusting the mouth of the teacher. Example:

"Sickness unto death" - scripturally? NO - there is SIN unto death.
A great number of Christians have actually believed that it was God's will for them to be sick because of this farce. :cry:

If you seek God's wisdom thru praying a deep down earnest desire to learn from Him, believe me - He will show you where to find it! But first you must strive to walk with Him, and the only way to do that is to be holy. Jesus baffled scholars & high priests - how did he do that? Because He was the very Word of God manifested in the flesh - in other words, the ultimate wisdom breathing, walking, and talking. I am SO looking forward to spending an eternity being enlightened by the Lord on the vast number of mysteries to this universe He created. Think about it - where did the dinosaur bones come from? Why are they here? Picture being taught by the Creator of ALL things! :grin:

[TiredIronGRB]

The scriptures your talking about refer to the age young Hebrew men have to offer sacrifices (animals) for there sins.

[HANO]

Question #1
He has been here before time began. He was not born, he has alaways been. We of finite mind can never completely understand an infinite God. It's the way it will always be. It is the reason why it's defined as faith.

Question #2
There are many different views on Hell, and if one portion has been reserved for the more sinister. Let me tell it to you this way, there is no part of Hell that is comforting. Whether a Jew who has never come to the realization of Jesus Christ, or to Hitler who has killed people by the hundreds of thousands, they all have one thing in common.... SIN.... It's what seperates ALL of us from God. Little or big it does not matter. They that have not received our Lord, have no intercession, and have not been bloodbought. All of which warrant Hell. I think when we ask the question "should God punish one more than the other?", I believe that we are really discounting the eternal weight of SIN. The smallest Sin would have been enough of a reason for our Saviour to be sacrificed on our behalf. What we should focus on is telling everyone we know, what we do know about Hell, that without Christ Jesus your Eternity rests in no other place. It's a hard pill to swallow, but there is NO way around it.

Question #3

Matthew 25:34
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

I won't question, nor care what Im doing there..... Praise be to God that I would get to go :!:

It's not enough to worry about.




You may have trouble, with some of these questions, but do not dwell on them to heavily. Start with what you do know, study on it and build, if something is extremely difficult to understand put it aside for now.

Spurgeon remembers hearing a quote that went like this " For a long period I puzzled myself about the difficulties of Scripture, until at last I came to the resolution that reading the Bible was like eating fish. When I find a difficulty I lay it aside and call it a bone. Why should I choke on the bone when there is so much nutritious meat for me? Some day, perhaps, I may find that even the bone may afford me nourishment."

[Gubni]

Thanks!

[Bluegill]

The scriptures your talking about refer to the age young Hebrew men have to offer sacrifices (animals) for there sins.

The important thing to note is WHY they had to offer sacrifices at THAT particular age :wink:

[TiredIronGRB]

The scriptures your talking about refer to the age young Hebrew men have to offer sacrifices (animals) for there sins.

The important thing to note is WHY they had to offer sacrifices at THAT particular age :wink:

Old covenant vs. New covenant...we'll just have to agree to disagree :wink:

[Bluegill]

Agreed, brother :wink:

My only point was that an age of accountability IS in scripture.

[TiredIronGRB]

I still disagree...but I know we agree on the main things :wink:

[Bluegill]

Yep! :grin:

[crackerjack]

I still disagree...but I know we agree on the main things :wink:

just so we're clear...the original comment was that a child that dies before being Baptised goes to the same place Hitler goes.

God Is just and that my brother is not Just !!

Here's one I found

Mathew 18:2-6
Jesus " I tell you the truth unless you change and become like the little children, you will never enter the Kingdom of heaven".

You made the statement "it's not in the Bible", my 8 year old was Baptised 2 months ago. My 4 year old daughter has no concept of Heaven or Hell and I can't simple dismiss this.... surely you understand ?

Hopefully we can talk over a camp fire soon :wink:

[TiredIronGRB]

I didn't say that babies go to hell, I said there was no "age of accountability" ...to be honest I don't think we'll know a lot of these questions until we're face to face with Jesus.

[HANO]

Im not sure what happens to babies or children that are too young to make a choice. However we are ALL a product of the fall. Hard to believe but even your young child has sinned, not intentionally, but inherited, imputed sin from Adam. However I believe Christ's death was sufficient to cover payment for those who cannot make the decision for themselves, e.g. too young or the mentally handicapped. Thirteen, I believe was the age in the Old Testament Law, but there is nothing mentioned that I know of for an exact age of accountability, it would likely vary according to the person.

Another spin to this, I am not sure if I should present it here, but George or Bluegill, I'd love to hear your take on it maybe by PM, would predestination or election have an effect on this topic. Would it apply? You may however have a different view regarding limited atonement or particular redemption in general. Sorry to murk up the waters....


I will state that we do not deserve anything but punishment, the very young and the old. But God has mercy on us, by allowing us the chance for Christ to intervene on our behalf. W/O Christ.........Nothing...... No way around it...


JR

[Thumpszilla]

Actually Hano I don't think it is murking up the waters. Isn't the purpose of this forum for us all to learn and be better soldiers for Christ? When a question like this is answered alot of people can learn rom it or at least where to start looking for the answer. I know I am no Bible scholar and these discussion often help me to learn more than just the answer to the original question. Exspecially when scripture locations are posted on the subject as well.

[Bluegill]

Guys, I too love Biblical debate - it is my calling to dispell myths about the Bible, and that is what I preach. Much like my own pastor, I have sometimes been called a radical Christian. However, I do not agree that an open forum is the best place for this. Why not? One word - denominations. Even though the debate is meant to clarify God's Word, once human egos and traditions are involved it will ultimately create divisions in this Body of believers (Grace)..........

John 17:20-23 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

As noted above in Jesus' longest recorded prayer, division is exactly the opposite of what our Lord wanted. One person believes this way - because that is what they've always been taught, and another believes differently, etc, etc, etc. What a person is taught while they are a spiritual "child" is what they generally tend to believe right now, particularly if they are satisfied with what they believe in or don't believe in. I Corinthians chapter 8 gives a good example of how a believer should handle themselves when in the company of true Christians who believe differently then they do (for example - totally random here - a Baptist visiting a relative's Catholic church). I for one am not bound by any denominational covenant, but I will also have no part in (nor stand for) putting any denomination down - so long as they believe in these important things about the Kingdom of God:
1. The Bible is the perfect, infallible Word of God.
2. God exists as 3 entities; the Father, the Holy Spirit, and the Son.
3. God created the universe and everything in it.
4. Jesus is the human manifestation of God's only Son, perfect in every way. Both man and God at the same time.
5. Jesus came to earth and dwelt among men, paid the price for EVERY human's sin by sacrificing His own life after being visciously beaten, rose from the dead 3 days later, and ascended to Heaven, where He still lives today, at God's right hand.
6. Because of Jesus' sacrifice, eternal salvation is available to anyone who sincerely seeks Him and believes in Him.

THOSE are the things that matter. Without them you are in serious danger of burning in hell, period. THAT is what gets you into Heaven. Everything else basically determines what you will have once you get to Heaven. EVERY human - whether they have been born on earth or not (aborted fetuses) WILL stand before the Lord at the White Throne of judgement and listen while their life is read back to them (Rev. 20:11-15).
Any mercy is entirely up to the Lord at that point, but the Bible does give important clues about things such as being too young to understand good & evil.

Now - what is my take on these "tough questions"? There is a neverending supply of God's wisdom in His Word. However, it is not easy to see and understand (beyond the surface) unless HE has prepared you to see and understand it first! My mission, my one goal in life, my heart's desire - is seeking the wisdom of God. From experience, I know that humans are not capable to fathom large doses of it UNLESS He prepares them first. Otherwise, insanity is the likely outcome. His unseen truth is rarely easy to swallow.

I welcome anyone to discuss any difficult topics with me via PM, but I must warn you beforehand - you may not hear what you want to!

JR - I loved the Spurgeon quote :wink: I always came back to the "bones" later myself.

[mountainmaggot]

As fathers we are accountable to God, our children are accountable to us. Children that die as children will deal with a just God. However, when we pass away we will have to account for how we raised and taught our children. Alot of churches don't teach this stuff because it might offend someone. I recently came across a scripture that really hit me between the eyes. It was quoted in a book I was reading by Tim LaHaye, "Fathers don't aggravate your children." I believe a child that has never been taught about Jesus is innocent in God's eyes. However a child that has been taught is a different story. The penalty for being a rebellious child is death. The father that diid not teach his child is going to have problems while the father who taught his child about Jesus will go thru the "pearly gates" even if the child refuses God. IMO we don't need to worry about whether or not a child will go to heaven so much as whether or not we taught them. No I'm not saying to forget about them, we still need to pray for them but if you are a good father chances are they will follow suit. This is important to the young fathers that are just getting started. The younger you start teaching them the easier it will be. Also, food for thought, you can also be a spiritual father for the child down the road that doesn't have a dad. They need a dad, someone to put their arm around them, to give them a pat on the back, to go to games, to teach them about Jesus. Our pastor challenged the men in the church to do these very things.
Sorry if I drifted off topic abit but I felt urged to sai it.
Sam

[Gordon]

In the Presbyterian denomination, we practice infant Baptism. We believe that God will act on the child's behalf until the child is able to make his/her own decisions.

That said, the child must be presented by believing parents (or others performing the duty of biological parents) for infant Baptism. We do not believe in "wholesale" Baptism of every living child arbitrarily.

During the ceremony of infant Baptism, the witnessing congregation re-affirms their vows, too, as well as promises to nuture to that child.

At some age (we do not say "age of accountability"), usually 12 or 13, young people, who are now making decisions about their own faith, do so by joining the church "by profession of faith". This follows some weeks of study, usually lead by the pastor, in addition to having been brought up in a Christian environment. This is where it is the child's (of any age) decision comes into play.

If the child has not previously been baptized, Baptism will take place just prior to profession of faith. This can and does occur at any age. Individuals who may not have been raised in a Christian environment, may come to their own decisions, regardless of upbringing.

Rob, your 6 points - very well stated.

[Thumpszilla]

I agree some very good info posted above. All of my kids have been christined (sp) and my oldest has accepted God and been baptised. He came to the decision when he was about 5 yrs. old that without God he was going to hell. He accepted Christ that night and was baptised a week later in the creek at my dads. My middle son has not come to that realization yet.

[crackerjack]

Thank You for understanding my persistance. The typed word doesn't rely emotion so I was trying to "type softly" haha
I drive a truck and late at night demons come on the C.B. and I try to do battle with them,for the sack of the soul being inslaved by them.
It's nice to have a place to have a discussion among brothers and sisters of faith :grin: